Curse

arcanemacabre · Mar 16, 2007, 07:22 AM // 07:22

I'm not passing judgement until I see the skills themselves. I don't see why they can't be properly balanced alongside all the other normal skills, though. Sure, LB Gaze is overpowered, but it only works on a handful of different types of monsters, and those are only in the endgame of Nightfall. It is bastardized, but it doesn't really affect the rest of the game, ya know?

The Sunspear Rebirth Sig is really nice, though. Not too powerful, and yes, it does replace Res Sig, but I don't really see a problem with that. It teleports, something that everyone brings Rebirth for in PvE. The teleport option just isn't needed in PvP, but is a near necessity in PvE, which is why I think it's a fabulous replacement for Res Sig.

I'm pretty sure Anet is perfectly aware of how easy most of PvE is, and I don't doubt that they will make these PvE-only skills (if they exist) balanced amongst the normal skills.

Braggi · Mar 16, 2007, 07:40 AM // 07:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

I don't mind very specialized PvE only skills (e.g. Lightbringer's Gaze), but I really dislike actual profession skills that won't be able to be utilized in PvP. To me, the eliminates some of the creativity that occurs in both PvP and PvE for those of us who play both regularly.

Agreed; while I don't really like a rank grindfest for special skills, that's at least bearable, but regular skills should not differ.

We always had the situation that PvP and PvE needs different builds and only a few work well in both situations.

Shanaeri Rynale · Mar 16, 2007, 07:51 AM // 07:51

Changes to the skillset and AI as a priority over PvE skills is I think the optimum way to go. Maybe hard mode will do just that, we dunno yet.

The only thing wrong with changing AI, is that suddenly loads of farm builds and tactics will be gone, and the resulting backlash from farmers would be immense. Imagine smites that could detect the corpses of their fallen buddies and refuse to chase you there for example.

Overpowered PVE only skills are a mixed blessing. It's an option to bring the forgotten classes back into PvE without breaking PvP and yet as pointed out it it then makes some of the many 100's of unused skills even less likely. PvE build innovation would stagnate even more and the game degenrates into cookie cutter grind.

I guess an option would maybe limit the use of certain PvE only skills to a certain area, or have more buffing skills by NPC. Kilroy stoneskin or Chimera for example. Alternatively limit the use of PvE skills to only 1 per bar which will minimise the effects on builds.

Personally Final Fantasy style summons, complete with cinematics would be so cool on a completley game breaking basis. Never going to happen, logically I dont want it to happen but the coolness would be off the scale(well for the first 10 times or so).

Whatever is done or not done it does seem to me that Anet has painted themselves into a corner and it'll be interesting to see what if any pve only skills they come up with in Ch4

Redfeather1975 · Mar 16, 2007, 07:55 AM // 07:55

When I summon an esper I go for a snack.

The Ernada · Mar 16, 2007, 08:16 AM // 08:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shanaeri Rynale

The only thing wrong with changing AI, is that suddenly loads of farm builds and tactics will be gone, and the resulting backlash from farmers would be immense. Imagine smites that could detect the corpses of their fallen buddies and refuse to chase you there for example.

If it improves the quality of the game of PVE then why should anyone let the complaints of farmers hinder it? As I've said before, farming is not how the game was intended to be played. If the gameplay and A.I. could be much better and much more fun, are we seriously going to let whining farmers keep it from being improved?

You can farm all you want and I'm not saying that you arent allowed to farm but don't expect ANET to support that type of gameplay as a priority. The regular gameplay takes precedence over farming.

It just amazes me how many people get so angry and threatened to quit because they can't farm anymore. The game is so much more than that.

Gli · Mar 16, 2007, 08:44 AM // 08:44

There's the question why PvE-only skills would be PvE-only skills. Overpowered? Maybe. Situation-specific? (LB and worm skills) Probably? It doesn't have to end there though. They might introduce skills that are totally unrelated to combat, like picking locks, swimming, etc.

Muspellsheimr · Mar 16, 2007, 09:45 AM // 09:45

PvE skills are useless and unneccesary. I myself have never used these skills after the first 2-3 times, and hate the fact that I even have skills that I cannot use in all aspects of the game I am playing.

I would understand, and even promote the use of PvE skills if the PvE characters could NOT play in Player vs. Player enviroments, but how the game is currently setup, they should never have been implemented to begin with. However, as they obviously where put into the game, my vote goes for removing them, and leaving them out now and in all future aspects of the game.

Shanaeri Rynale · Mar 16, 2007, 09:48 AM // 09:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Ernada

If it improves the quality of the game of PVE then why should anyone let the complaints of farmers hinder it? As I've said before, farming is not how the game was intended to be played. If the gameplay and A.I. could be much better and much more fun, are we seriously going to let whining farmers keep it from being improved?

You can farm all you want and I'm not saying that you arent allowed to farm but don't expect ANET to support that type of gameplay as a priority. The regular gameplay takes precedence over farming.

It just amazes me how many people get so angry and threatened to quit because they can't farm anymore. The game is so much more than that.

I kinda agree. I'm not a huge farmer. But there are people who love to and it's the reason they play the game.

I remember the fuss over the last two big AI changes(aoe scatter and the run away and heal one) and I'm sure Anet wont want a repeat of it if it can be avoided.

If some people cant farm, then they will leave. which will affect us all. So balancing intelligent AI with the wishes of some players is a tricky thing to do. Personally I would love the AI of some of the FPS games, but recognise that super quick and reactive AI may not be in the best interests of the game.

Glad i'm not a games designer - lol

Obey The Cat · Mar 16, 2007, 12:45 PM // 12:45

My greatest wish is to see monsters with more and "random" skillsets in hardmode. Would be sooooooooo nice to fight vs Dwarven with Hammers, Axes and Swords maybe and 8 used skills and monk mobs who ress. Would also be a great mesmer pve buff.

Draiyne Valure · Mar 16, 2007, 02:48 PM // 14:48

By random do you mean truly random or randomly chosen from a set of pre-determined builds? A random 8 would probably in most cases end in disaster. Choosing from a set of builds would be awesome; bunny thumping Hekhet and the like would be amazing.

Quote:

When I summon an esper I go for a snack.

Yeah, and when they overdrive I have a quick shower. And I heat the water myself by staring at it REAL hard.

Obey The Cat · Mar 16, 2007, 04:26 PM // 16:26

randomly chosen from a set of pre-determined builds.

Neriandal Freit · Mar 16, 2007, 04:32 PM // 16:32

Not reading this entire topic, but my two gold pieces here is that I do not want to see PvE-Only skills.

Part of the reason I like this game is, and though I don't play, that PvP and PvE use the exact same skills and get entirely different results. Which is insanely awesome for a game able to pull off.

But, if we begin to see a mass amount of PvE-Only Skills (besides likes like Gaze, Wurm attacks, etc.), then this will begin to corrupt the game. Not right away, no. But slowly, it will, and I don't want to see any of that.

Bread Fan · Mar 16, 2007, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by cthulhu reborn

Since PvP and PvE are entirely different playing styles and use totally different builds, it is already that way. PvE skills won't make that new...it's been that way from the start.

Yes you are right. LF tank to stand there and take damage, LF echo NUKER!!!

Quite hilarious that people are bitching that monsters break aggro now.

I say go for it because most PvE players just like to farm the same thing day in and day out with cookie cutter builds. When a skill balance happens PvE players start to moan and cry about it even though a skill is clearly over powered so this may shut them up a bit and obviously thats Anet's intention.

DreamRunner · Mar 16, 2007, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcapulet

Okay, but do you think a skill balance affects PvP players the same way it would affect PvE players? IMO, it's different because PvP and PvE builds are quite different.

A skill balance for "skill xyz" may be nice and fair for PvP players. PvE players, (who are using skill xyz differently than PvP players would), are then affected by the same nerf...and they had nothing to do with it.

If it was imbalanced in PvE...I'd have no problem with it. If it was imbalanced in PvP and, as a result, the skill balance affected my PvE build(s), that's not cool. That's why I support the concept of having some PvE-only skills (as well as PvP-only skills).

On the other side of the coin, I wouldn't think it fair to balance a skill because it was overpowered in PvE. That wouldn't be fair to the PvP players. But, that would never happen, would it?

The only thing different is how the person is using the build. And the only thing PvE builds being nerfed because of a skill change in PvP, is the farming builds. The balancing in PvP is much more fragile than PvE. A warrior could go around with a terrible build in PvE and still go through it fine. If by some unknown reason that the PvE system became as fragile as the PvP system, we would be playing a different game altogether. WoW anyone? Yeah, It failed because it tried to do this.

Yeah it sucks but really it doesn't effect PvE that much other than farming builds. Which I hear most people cry about anyway. You are not pinned down to a single build, its so easy to just tweak it and have the same effect. Why? Because PvE is easy! PvE is so adaptable, its a joke that people cry about nerfs that "effect" them so much.

Yaga Philipe · Mar 16, 2007, 06:16 PM // 18:16

I think it's funny, since all they do it cry about things being nerfed, when really they could be finding a different build that works even better.

Yaga Philipe · Mar 16, 2007, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Obey The Cat

randomly chosen from a set of pre-determined builds.

That would be cool to have to go in a mission and have builds that have to stop a variety of builds. It would be harder to defeat big bosses too, since you wouldn't know which build they have.

Zonzai · Mar 16, 2007, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

I'm not passing judgement until I see the skills themselves.

You have far too much common sense and level-headedness to be posting in this thread.

Ensign · Mar 16, 2007, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Ernada

It just amazes me how many people get so angry and threatened to quit because they can't farm anymore. The game is so much more than that.

Games are different things to different people, and usually the whole is more than any one person is interested in. To be curt, I'd argue that competitive PvP is the biggest feature of Guild Wars, and there are enormous swaths of people who want to have nothing to do with that aspect of the game.

To a lot of people, one of the core gameplay mechanics that they are interested in is wealth accumulation. How does that work in Guild Wars? Through farming, unfortunately. Call it one of the weaker aspects of the game, but the important part of it, to many people, isn't the gameplay, but seeing the number in the money column go up and playing barbie with their avatar. Any changes to farming patterns makes that number go up more slowly, which makes their pattern less profitable which makes the game less fun.

I think it would be silly to really hold the game hostage to that group's wishes, however. That would basically be a vote for never changing anything, regardless of its effects on the quality of the game, because it might impact someone's pattern (actually, it usually impacts someone's pattern, since those patterns are often based on the broken stuff)...and that's not a concession you can make if one of your goals is to make a good game.

Peace,
-CxE

mqstout · Mar 16, 2007, 08:23 PM // 20:23

PvE-only skills are an extremely Bad Thing (TM). They go hand-in-hand with badly balanced, frustratingly difficult "challenges" and the like.

(FYI, PvE player, exclusively.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pynne

I love LB gaze! It's a godsend for unskilled idiots like me. I would welcome more skills like that, that help a casual gamer get through the tougher areas a little faster.

It's more than you need it to get through the excessively overpowered areas in the game because of the few who call everything easy (even still!).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

What's all this nonsense about PvE skills removing challenge? There's no challenge to begin with in PvE unless you go looking for it. A full party of mediocre players can already breeze through practically every mission/explorable in every chapter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

I'm pretty sure Anet is perfectly aware of how easy most of PvE is, ...

I'm sure glad you think so. Perhaps it's time to attempt to reconnect with the common casual player. And thanks for adding a little confirmation my previous comment

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dracil

I predict in a few more chapters, we'll have lvl 36 monsters, but we'll also get special titles and skills that'll give us +200 health boost and +50% damage and half hex and condition times against them. There'll also probably be mixed mobs, so you'll have to manage your title switches (to add even more "skill" to the game) depending on the mobs you're facing.

Sadly, it's already feeling that way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Having to create imbalanced skills for PvE is just proof that Anet failed to balance the PvE challenge. If the purpose of PvE is to wield your 'special PvE skills' to kill monsters, which wouldn't have to be introduced if the standard skills were balanced against enemies in the first place, what does that mean for all those thousands of other skills? Time would be better spent simply tweaking PvE development to not require a completely new line of skills, because if restricted skills have to be added to keep things in check, that's not solving the problem - just covering it.

Thank you for saying what needed to be said.

Why? · Mar 17, 2007, 01:02 AM // 01:02

If PvE players were all about farming, then most pve'ers would be wealthy. What was it, only 6 months ago that Anet said most players don't even have 10k in their vaults?

Yea, they really all want to be rich.

I think PvP has to be completely separated from PvE. Anet has taken the fun out of PvE to balance PvP, and that just stinks.

Separate the two skill sets somehow, so they can restore the PvE skills that made the game so much fun for people.

Ya know, when minions had no limits, the rit lords that were so much fun, etc.
PvP and PvE are 2 seperate games. Forcing them to have the same skill sets makes Anet base the skills on 1 or the other. Sadly, they chose to make all skills focus on PvP.

Having PvE only skills will hopefully make the game a bit more enjoyable, instead of how tedious it has become. Instead of having a few overpowered builds like we have now, every class could have a few overpowered builds, and all classes could be used again.